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 Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss

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Worthy
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JPower

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PostSubject: Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss   Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty7/28/2011, 2:27 pm

I"m not sure why I'm doing this; maybe as an outlet for myself to get my writing juices going, to mentor the Young Gunz on ways to make their build better, or just to get it out on electronica for everyone to see, but here goes anyway.

Before I get into the second part of this series (which it is, I suppose), I need to address a valid point made on my last thread: AT's and SA's.

AT's, to me, are the AutoTune of TWG - originally intended for people to fix, tweak, and fine-tune their builds, but ended up being the scourge that causes people to ragequit.

Seriously, if you have enough disposable income, you can literally buy yourself an unbeatable build - level 35 in Damage Resistance, level 35 in Improved Block/Dodge, and you might as well hand them the Crimson Gem of Cytorrak, because they're an f'n unstoppable juggernaut. Do the math. That adds a total 1260 points to your block and DR. Who can beat that? Nobody. And that's not even taking into account adds in DDI, Attack Bonus, bleed, etc.

Now this isn't a swipe at anyone specific (read: "Sorry, Playboy"), but above the cut line I mentioned in an earlier post (at or around 80k WS), the power curve becomes vertical, and that can be placed squarely at the feet of AT's.

The point I'm making is this: a good MMORPG has ways to make the game engaging and fun for players of all levels, and this is the one thing TWG fails at, IMBAO: AT's make the game literally unplayable for those unfortunate enough to reach level 30 and aren't named Rockefeller or Gates.

SA's on the other hand, are all sparkle and little substance. Unless you're willing to invest millions of FE's in them, they'll have little impact in the long run. In the short run, however, especially if you're low level ("low-level" I define as "under level 30", but the more accurate description is "up to level 20 or so"), they are a good way to temporarily patch holes in your build until you can fill them with skill adds or (grr) AT's.

Okay, now that that's out of the way, let's get to the article proper:

I may be totally wrong on this, but I see people excited about getting their next cool move like Ankle Lock, Moonsault, or Steenalizer. That's all well and good, but if you don't get them to grounded, groggy, etc, you'll never get those big moves off.

In his book On Writing, Stephen King borrowed a quote from A Raisin in the Sun:
Quote :
"I wanna fly!" "First, eat your eggs."

He used this to illustrate he fact that your amazing novel idea won't go over well if you can't grasp the basic ideas of grammar, spelling, and sentence structure. (I'm looking at you, fan fiction writers) This philosophy carries over well into TWG. The basics of TWG lie in two move positions that seem to be glossed over and/or taken for granted: Opening Moves and Standing.

These are the two move types you will be using most often, but they seem to be the most neglected of all or, at the very least, lumped in with all the other move positions in terms of priority.

Let me make this absolutely clear: These moves should be your top priority!!!!!

Aside from the aforementioned fact that they will be used most often, they have one major weakness that can be the Achilles' Heel in any build: they have exceptionally low attack bonus. The highest base attack bonus in the Opening moveset is 8, and for Opening, it's 12.

This is a weakness of the game, IMBAO (I mean, an STF is easier to hit than a simple Slap? Really?), but, unlike other weaknesses in the game, it can be easily worked around.

Having a high attack bonus is fine, but likely your opponents will have just as high or, in the case of speeds and techs, higher block/dodge, and raising your attack bonus is extremely time-consuming or XP consuming. Raising the skill takes considerably less time and money and has more immediate results.

To ensure the bset possible hit possibility, your final moveset for Opening, and Standing as well, should have the minimum three moves.

My recommendation is to raise your Opening moves to a skill level 2-2.5 times your level, and your Standing moves 1.5-2 times your level. This will not only get your moves to a decent attack bonus, but will give you some decent damage.

But, for these moves, more than any other, damage is not a priority; attack bonus is. Let your main moves do the heavy lifting.

Which brings me to my recommendation for which moves to select for your final moveset. Opening move is easy:

Chop
European Uppercut
Throat Thrust

This should be your target, and it's not that hard a target to meet, considering the requirements are not that bad. Chop is easy enough to get (Head Start + Lightness = 3), as you should be raising Lightness anyway (more on that later), and the other two only require Strength skills (Rage, Stiff Blow, and Berserker).

If you're not keen on raising Stiff Blow (if you're ignoring bleed for some strange reason), then you can swap in Ear Slap, as it has the same attack bonus and is available from the beginning. An attack bonus of 7 is going to be hard to deal with, but, unfortunately, there are only two 8's in the Opening set, so you have to take what you can get.

Now, on to Standing moves. I thought long and hard about this, and decided two things:

One: Being a Balanced sucks major balls.

I have many problems with the Balanced class (and I should know, having played one for so long), but the biggest issue I have is this: A good chunk of the Balanced moveset is devoted to Standing moves. And a lot of them are redundant. And just plain bad.

Couple this with the fact that there are no: Submission moves, Pin moves, or Grounded moves (go look! There's not a single one!) - and no other class has any Standing moves.

Now, I could make the case that this was intentional on the game designers' part to test the skill of someone who wants to play a Balanced, but there's so much wasted potential with having such a logjam of moves in one position that has a wealth of normal moves so much better than the Balanced.

If you're playing a Balanced (first of all, I'm sorry...) then you can use some of those moves as a stopgap at early levels until you get to the beef, but in the final moveset, you will see few Balanced Standing moves, and even then, they're optional

Two: the game designers are in love with Head Start + Elasticity

I'm serious: The two most worthless (to me, YMMV) skills in the game, and a good deal of the good moves use that specific combination, including one of the best Standing moves. And Head Start itself is the centerpiece of a plethora of amazing moves, thinking we'll just throw points into it to get these cool moves instead of saving and spending points on skills that will actually improve the character in appreciable ways.

That said, though, Head Start isn't quite as worthless as Elasticity, so it may be worth throwing some points into just to get the skills. Again, YMMV.

I'm going to list up to three moves for each "Obtained Position": Bent Down, Groggy, and Grounded. If you're trying to herd your opponent into a specific position, then you'll want to take more than one of each, but try to stick with the minimum three moves in this position so you'll hit them more often.

The moves will be listed in each position in order of priority.

Bent Down:

1)Mule Kick

The attack bonus falls from 10 to 8 from here. This is as good as it gets, folks. Again, you should be raising Lightness, and a few points in Head Start will get you this gem.

If you're wanting a Bent Down set your next set are Big Kick and Powerful Knee Strike, both of which require Willpower, so take that for what it's worth.

If you're a Balanced, your next choice would be Pepsi Twist at Versa 12 if you want to go that route.

Groggy:

1) 3 Point Stance Charge
2) Side Kick

Both of these feature skills you should already be raising anyway... and Willpower. 3 Point Stance is easier to get, requiring Tireless and Toughness, and it deals more damage for the same attack bonus, so it barely wins out.

For the Balanced, unfortunately, there are no Groggy moves. The position where their beefiest moves are (Steenalizer, C4, Bisontennial), and they don't get any help getting them there. Figures...

Grounded

1) Club to the Neck
2) Forearm on Leg

Yes, Forearm on Leg does more damage, but it requires that ungodly combination of Head Start and Elasticity. At a total of 23, no less. So, down the line, if you have spare points to throw away, you can pick it up. But, by that time, Club to the Neck will probably be well-advanced, and picking Forearm on Leg up and raising it may not be worth the FE expenditure, unless you're going for a Grounded-heavy set.

And, in another irony, the Balanced set has more moves for Grounded than for any position, when they have no actual Grounded moves.

Neckbreaker Cutter (at Versa 12) is the best of the bunch, having the highest attack bonus of all the Balanced Standing moves at 11. The two moves I listed have a 12 attack bonus and less potential damage, so if you're willing to shave a few points off of attack bonus for a little more damage, that's your best bet.

Sorry this one was a little long, but if anyone is helped with this, or at least entertained by it, then it wasn't a total waste of time.

More later if anyone's interested.
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Argo
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PostSubject: Re: Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss   Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty7/28/2011, 3:25 pm

Interesting again. I like the basics on get to the position with your amazing moves or they are not amazing. I had that problem awhile back and it was annoying.

Always remember that no matter what I can have Over 700 dr but it still only minimizes to a certain number. (I think that number is 95% dr and 195% ddi.)

I don't know about being able to buy a build. You can buy supporter which is actually not a bad price considering and tp's but you still have to have the xp and that much xp takes all kind of matches. (You are talking over 1,200,000 xp and you still need entrances to get more xp) I know awhile back they sold accounts but I don't know if they still do that. The real investment I see is the time to get as many matches as possible.

Just my two cents overall very good and helpful guide for new people or those struggling.
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Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss   Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty7/28/2011, 3:38 pm

Intresting read, nice work again Jack.
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Cryl
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Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss   Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty7/28/2011, 4:40 pm

I like, please continue
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PostSubject: Re: Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss   Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty7/28/2011, 5:32 pm

@Argo: I'm mostly referring to the TP buyers who plunk down mucho $$ on straight-up TP buying (you know, the guys who get the VIP Achievement) and spend them on tournaments, private leagues, etc. to convert those TP's into FE and XP. Buy AT, buy entrances, Lather, rinse, repeat.

About the DR limits, though, it gets to the point where no matter what level of DDI you have, you'll always hit a light Steenalizer or something equally meaningless, so even if you CAN hit, you won't do any damage, then they turn around and flop you around like a rag doll.

That's what I mean about the divide: Just about anybody with WS > 80k will thoroughly whomp a normal person like myself. Not just beat, but destroy - as in killing in black without using even Trademarks, let alone Finishers and picking up 75-100+ XP per match..

Yes, I know I'm over 80K in WS right now; I don't expect that to last.
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Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss   Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty7/29/2011, 12:12 am

I like reading these. I feel I've done everything wrong, as I didn't have this thorough analysis. I think I can fix things, though. Knowing this stuff can help me plug up holes. Keep up the writing, because this is all good knowledge, written in a style that's easy to read.
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Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss   Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty7/29/2011, 6:33 am

what jesse said ^^^
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PostSubject: Re: Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss   Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty7/29/2011, 7:24 pm

Oh, and by the way, if you're going for the "strong moveset" achievement, Chop is your best, cheapest, fastest bet.
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PostSubject: Re: Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss   Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty7/30/2011, 2:43 am

This is my problem at the moment as on the one hand i'm a fan of highflyers, so I want moves like Shooting Star Press regardless, but on the other hand most of these are low damage and the more powerful moves are not highflyer types (few exceptions such as Moonsaults).

So do you go with your heart and build a wrestler you like with a move set you like or do you sell out and have aload powerful moves you hate/find boring just to win?

BTW I got my eyes on 3 powerful speed moves which all require alot being added to 'headstart', but 'quickness' does the same and gives you extra, so do you level headstart up for them powerful moves, or do you level up quickness for the stats?

You raise alot of good points on moves in your posts Jack.
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PostSubject: Re: Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss   Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty7/30/2011, 4:11 am

I know how you feel, WOrthy. I've had to tweak my final moveset because most of the moves I looked for had Head Start, Elasticity, or both, even to the point of pulling from the Tech movebase (Once I get my Speed skills and moves where I want them, I'm going to focus on raising Escape Artist, because Techs vex me so...)

BTW, you notice that Split-legged Moonsault has exactly the same stats as Shooting Star Press, but with a more relevant skill in Frenzied Urge? TWG does that a lot: create duplicate moves with different skill requirements.
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Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss   Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty7/30/2011, 6:06 am

JPower wrote:
I know how you feel, WOrthy. I've had to tweak my final moveset because most of the moves I looked for had Head Start, Elasticity, or both, even to the point of pulling from the Tech movebase (Once I get my Speed skills and moves where I want them, I'm going to focus on raising Escape Artist, because Techs vex me so...)

BTW, you notice that Split-legged Moonsault has exactly the same stats as Shooting Star Press, but with a more relevant skill in Frenzied Urge? TWG does that a lot: create duplicate moves with different skill requirements.

Exactly Jack and the best example of this is how the Speed stat has the pin bonus, so what pinning move does the most damage (not counting finishers)?

...Blue Thunder Pin that requires a total of 52 ability points on Ruthless Grasp and Feint (both in Tech), it's like a cruel joke, lol!

Oh and don't get me started with West Coast Pop as that is Rey Mysterios finisher and in the game it barely does any damage (which is why I replaced it with Falcon Arrow which does more damage and still does the pin afterwards).
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PostSubject: Re: Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss   Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty7/31/2011, 2:15 am

And, of course, all the best submission moves require Strength-based skills.
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Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss   Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty7/31/2011, 4:16 am

I think the highest bleed move is one that requires Speed stats, but i'm not sure?

BTW 2 of the 3 moves i'm going to get after upping my speed stats are both in the 60+ damage range with high bleed percentage and they are Jumping twisting DDT and Jumping Half Nelson Facebuster which both require upping the headstart stat and whilst they both require other stats (frienzied urge on one and Elasticity on the other), they are diffrent to each other, plus I can get a decent turnbuckle move too by upping headstart (seriously Somersault kick does more damage at base stat than my current turnbuckle moves that are are level 20 and higher).
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PostSubject: Re: Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss   Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty8/1/2011, 7:59 pm

Oh, on a personal note, I spent money on the escape submission SA for my s3 dude, and it paid dividends IMMEDIATELY! Techs used to clean my clock, now I'm winning more than I'm losing. I only wish they had sustain/interrupt attack sequence SA's because applying 30 points to a percentage chance is WELL worth the fe cost!

Now all I need to do is find a way to consistently beat Res, and I'll be set!
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Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss   Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty8/2/2011, 1:59 am

On a personal note, level 30 sucks on S3 as well. I'm planning to abandon Hagbard... Sad
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Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty
PostSubject: Re: Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss   Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty8/2/2011, 2:36 am

SaintPatrik wrote:
On a personal note, level 30 sucks on S3 as well. I'm planning to abandon Hagbard... Sad

Can't be as bad as level 30 on server 1 with the same 4 champions everyday.
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Jack's build philosophy 2: Things people miss Empty
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